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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 23:24 
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 21:40
Posts: 72
Location: Ashland, OR
I've been trying to choose between an O200 engine and rebuilding my C85 with the O200 crank, rods & pistons so I called Don Swords of www.donsdreammachines.com. in GA.

Don said an O200 makes its 100 hp at 2750 rpm - beyond reach in a Champ. It only makes 75 hp at 2500 rpm.

He said a C85 with the O200 crank makes 97 hp at 2575 rpm. That's roughly 20 hp more than the stock O200 at the same rpm.

Even a stock C85 makes close to 10 more hp at 2500 rpm than the O200.

Don sells the STC to build the C85 with the O200 crank so there is financial motivation to promote it. Does anyone have any rebuttals that support the O200 over the modified C85?

Don said his shop will rebuild my C85 with a new O200 crank & pistons, reconditioned rods, new Millennium cylinders, reconditioned case and cam, and balancing for $13,300. He offers a 200-hr written warranty.

For another $800 he will "flow match" the cylinders (clean up lips and bumps) which he claimed raised the hp from 97 to 111 on an independent dyno.

Have any of you gone this route? If so, what do you think? Nathan, I know you did your own version of this project for a lot less money. I would do it your way, but my work-along AI is booked until August.

Thanks,
Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 14:13 
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Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 16:49
Posts: 2176
Location: San Martin, California
Jim,
The 0200 components installed into a C85 do not provide an increase in horsepower. The STC was issued due to the fact that C85 cranks are not being manufactured.
The longer stroke of the 0200 results in a wider torque range.
I think the STC is good if you were in need of a crank for your 85. The crank and STC kits from Aircraft Specialties are about 3K.
I would send out your engine parts for inspection, certification and put the thing back together. Be satisfied with what it is, you cant make it better.
Remember, a pig in a tuxedo is still a pig....
Paul

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Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:57 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 04:32
Posts: 254
Location: UK
Paul Agaliotis wrote:
Jim,
Be satisfied with what it is, you cant make it better.
Remember, a pig in a tuxedo is still a pig....
Paul


In England we have a similar expression :-

' You can't polish a turd '

Get it slapped back together and enjoy the summer :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 21:10 
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 22:22
Posts: 2407
Location: Danville, KY (DVK)
Mike, Paul I've got to disagree. The STC takes a standard C85 to a whole new level! I've flown an O-200 power Champ, C-85 and then my Super-85 Champ back to back, and the differences are amazing. All three airplanes were close in weight and prop pitch; combo leaning towards the cruise side.

The Super-85 got off the ground quickest at 300ft, C85 broke around 450-500 and the O-200 was the worst breaking ground at 700ft. Super-85 climbed the best: 1000agl by the end of the runway (3000ft), C85 - 500agl, O-200 - 450agl. At full power cruise the Super-85 and O-200 were equal at 115mph, and the C85 was about 10mph slower.

Jimboe,
Sorry it's taken me so long to write back. Summer time has me on the road 5-6 days a week with little or no time for the internet.

You've seen the threads where I've talked about building my engine, so you can see where I could have saved a bunch of money. First off, I had to find a C-85 to start with, which you've already got. Plus I got a new set of mufflers and bought a new prop. If I had been in a situation like you (already have a complete C85 and accessories) it would have cost about 5-6k to rebuild it with the O-200 STC.

As for Don Swords, sure he's a sales man and trying to make his dollar, but the numbers he gave you are solid. Take a look at the power curves and you can see it yourself. If you've got the money and don't want to rebuild the motor yourself, having Don's shop build it up is a good deal. I have several friends using his Super-85's. Don also mentored me when I was building up my engine; I stopped by his shop everyday because I didn't know how to do something, or I messed up.... like breaking rings. :roll:

Flow matching the cylinders is worth it too. The only reason it cost so much is because of the labor involved. I think I spent 4 nights and 20 hours smoothing out the intake elbows and spider with a mini dremel and brake cylinder hone.

I'm trying to remember, you've got a C-85-12 right? If so, for the STC you'd need an O-200 crank, Rods, and Pistons. A serviceable crank can be found at any salvage yard, or if you're a wheeler-dealer, buy a whole O-200 and part it out on eBay or something. I heard of several people doing that and getting the crank and rods for a net of $0. Aircraft Specialties has their own version of the C85/O-200 STC and sell it for around $300. They can also get brand new O-200 cranks for around $2700.

If I was in your position, I'd opt for a new crank, swap your rods with Aircraft Specialties, and put 4 brand new ECI CermiNickle Cylinders on. You said your IA was busy for a while, but you really don't need him too much; time wise, if you wanted to build the engine yourself. You can break the engine apart, clean everything up and send off all the parts for inspection and certification. Aircraft Specialties also carries all the parts you'll need for a rebuild...i.e. bearings, gaskets etc... When you get all the parts back from the shop(s) and the new parts bought; take them all down to the FBO and start bolting it together. The overhaul manual is very through and will walk you through every step. Novices like me and you can bolt an engine together in 2 eight hour days, if all the parts and hardware are there. That's one weekend if you don't goof off. At a shop like Don's, they can build the engine and have it running on the test stand in 8 hours.

Think it over Jim, but I'm pushing for the Super-85. You won't be disappointed, I promise! If you've got any questions, let them fly, there's probably several others wondering the say thing.

If you're ever around Atlanta or Macon, give me a holler and I'll take you in a Super-85 powered Cub unless I get my Champ flying by then.

nkh

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7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 09:46 
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Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 16:49
Posts: 2176
Location: San Martin, California
I,m sure the performance is increased due to the larger displacement. But marketing the STC as a hot rod option is misleading. The engines produced by DDM are gaining a good reputation. But by allowing them to be marketed as major increases is not good business, in the long term.
At the flight school we had three L2 Taylorcraft, all were equipt the same. Same engine, props, weights even rigged by the same person. All of them flew completely different. This was also the case with the five 7ECA,s used. My point being,that, unless you limit the variables any information gathered will be inaccurate.
Paul

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 21:38 
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 21:40
Posts: 72
Location: Ashland, OR
I want to say thank you to Paul, Mnflyer, Mike, David, Robert, Nathan & Joe for your comments on this and the related matters I've posted. I was hoping this would be more concrete than it is. Nevertheless, your opinions have helped me arrive at a strategy for saving money and getting my Champ flying again soon.

I've ruled out changing to an O200 engine - too much of a project for me. My AI agreed to help me tear down and inspect my C85. I'll follow his recommendations about what to send to the machine shop.

I'm surrounded by 5,000 to 7,000-foot mountains and don't want to miss a relatively easy opportunity to increase take-off and climb performance. I intend to put an O200 crank, rods & pistons in the C85 to gain whatever performance advantage it will produce.

It occurred to me that I can install an overhauled O200 crank instead of buying a brand new one. And if my C85 crank is in good condition, I'm hoping to arrange a trade. I found an AI with lots of small Continental engine building experience in the area and will have him or my AI bolt it all together. I'm estimating that I can do this for much, much less than the $13,000 quotes I've received. I will let you guys know how it works.

Thank you all.
Jim


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 00:12 
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 22:22
Posts: 2407
Location: Danville, KY (DVK)
Jim, you'll love it! On my first takeoff with the new engine; the airplane flew before I was ready. :shock: :D

And let me express this.... I'm holding onto aviation by a thread, finacially speaking. It took me a year of scrounging for parts and money to build-up an engine. But understand this: if I ever have another 85hp airplane, I will spend the money for a C85/O-200. Regardless of the cost. :!:

nkh

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Super 85-12F @ DVK


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 09:44 
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Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 14:08
Posts: 312
Hi Jim, I think your on the right track, as you say you can use any extra help you can get. Basically more or less your making a 90 hp out of the 85 and thats good. Good luck

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GB MN.Flyer
Flying a Champ 7DC and a HKS Kitfox III


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