A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Props, Spinners and McDowell Starter issues.
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EDGEFLY
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A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by EDGEFLY » Fri Jan 04, 2013 20:33

I have been watching this thread for some time since I purchased my Chief which is an 11AC with an A-65 and no evidence that a McDowell system was ever on it. I have taken note of several requirements for different cabling and nose bowl mods to make one of these fit various configurations usually involving some engine enhancement/modification/support ...whatever. Recently, I have come across a presumably complete set of parts(for the starter) taken from an 11AC which had a C 65-8 engine. Yes, I will do my own research to see if this is a form fit to my engine but am interested in whatever I can learn from Forum members about likely to cause problems if I try to simply reinstall this strarter on my machine. JoeA has mentioned in some of his previous posts incompatibility due to Shaft taper or flange mounting on different parts in the market and perhaps I even will have to make a Nose bowl mod on my aircraft. Thanks for any help you may be able to offer.

Dale

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Fri Jan 04, 2013 22:40

Dale,
Under the floorboard you should have the anchor point for the pull handle. Also there should be a little U channel on the left side with a hole or two in it, this is for the handle stop. There is a pulley mount on the forward left side just before the cable goes through the firewall. If you are missing any of these you might think against installation.
There are a few nose bowls available so modification would not be required. The ratchet wheel for the starter would need to be changed if the two engines have differing crank styles.
The parts are the same for the A series. The later C series had a different pulley bracket at the forward location. The crankcase bolt pattern is different at the front and a different bracket was needed to match this configuration.
I've done a little work on this stuff, so, let me know if I can help.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

EDGEFLY
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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by EDGEFLY » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:09

Ok Paul,

I will search for the pieces/holes etc. which you indicated might be a reason for not attempting this installation. In the meantime, I have a few other questions. Since the starter hardware which I am considering presumably came off a C 65-8 engine on an 11AC and I have an A 65, does this mean that the pulleys and ratchet gear are necessarily incompatible without parts modification ? Is the C 65-8 vs the A 65 the much discussed difference between engine shafts ? How does the "dished out" gear configuration fit into this ? If there is a handle anchor mount on the frame, would there not also be some relief in the floorboard ? I realize this may have been covered up if a starter was ever removed or never installed to begin with. Do you have any idea how many of the 11AC production line aircraft were outfitted with Starters or with the items which. You indicated were essential to consideration of a mod now ? You mention that the C series had a different front pulley mounting arrangement. If this is true of the starter I am looking at, is there a source for the A series engines ? I have the Chief Service manual which includes a sort of Assembly layout for the starter. I assume that is supposed to describe the installation on an A series engine. Can you confirm that ? Is there, to your knowledge, an 11AC in existence with the original McDowell starter and operating ?

For anyone reading this thread, please share with me any photography you may have which shows McDowell installations. Especially 11AC's with plain old A 65 engines.

Dale

EDGEFLY
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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by EDGEFLY » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:09

Ok Paul,

I will search for the pieces/holes etc. which you indicated might be a reason for not attempting this installation. In the meantime, I have a few other questions. Since the starter hardware which I am considering presumably came off a C 65-8 engine on an 11AC and I have an A 65, does this mean that the pulleys and ratchet gear are necessarily incompatible without parts modification ? Is the C 65-8 vs the A 65 the much discussed difference between engine shafts ? How does the "dished out" gear configuration fit into this ? If there is a handle anchor mount on the frame, would there not also be some relief in the floorboard ? I realize this may have been covered up if a starter was ever removed or never installed to begin with. Do you have any idea how many of the 11AC production line aircraft were outfitted with Starters or with the items which. You indicated were essential to consideration of a mod now ? You mention that the C series had a different front pulley mounting arrangement. If this is true of the starter I am looking at, is there a source for the A series engines ? I have the Chief Service manual which includes a sort of Assembly layout for the starter. I assume that is supposed to describe the installation on an A series engine. Can you confirm that ? Is there, to your knowledge, an 11AC in existence with the original McDowell starter and operating ?

For anyone reading this thread, please share with me any photography you may have which shows McDowell installations. Especially 11AC's with plain old A 65 engines.

Dale

Chief Pilot
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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by Chief Pilot » Sat Jan 05, 2013 16:48

EDGEFLY, I've also been looking into the McDowell starter and may be able to help.
Since the starter hardware which I am considering presumably came off a C 65-8 engine on an 11AC and I have an A 65, does this mean that the pulleys and ratchet gear are necessarily incompatible without parts modification ? Is the C 65-8 vs the A 65 the much discussed difference between engine shafts ? How does the "dished out" gear configuration fit into this?
You may have some incorrect info -- I don't believe Continental made a "C-65" engine. As Paul mentioned in an earlier post, the pulley bracketry is different between the A-65 and the C-85 engines. Chiefs may be equipped with either of these engines. The engines can have a tapered crankshaft or a flanged crankshaft. The McDowell ratchet wheel for the two types is different - the deep-dish wheel goes with the flanged crankshaft. The flange-shaft ratchet also has larger bolt holes (5/8" I believe vs 3/8" for the taper shaft). Taper shaft installations require a prop spacer (Aeronca drawing 2-1017c) to provide adequate clearance between the propeller/spinner and the nose bowl. Aeronca experts say the plate needs to be 1/2" thick instead of the 1/4" specified by the drawing.
Do you have any idea how many of the 11AC production line aircraft were outfitted with Starters . . .
I believe the McDowell starter was standard equipment on the Chief and there appears to be a number of them still installed.
. . . perhaps I even will have to make a Nose bowl mod on my aircraft
Most Chiefs have the appropriate nose bowl. I've attached some photos for reference. By the way, if you have a taper-shaft ratchet and need a flange-shaft version, we may be able to arrange a trade.
Attachments
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jepropst
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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by jepropst » Sat Jan 05, 2013 18:44

mcdowell starter gears.jpg
mcdowell starter gears.jpg (242.3 KiB) Viewed 4163 times
A while back while I was at Bill Pancake's shop I noticed several McDowell starter ratchet gears hanging on his wall. The attached photo shows the dished gear for the flanged shaft engine and the flatter gear for the tapered shaft engines. Bill has a McDowell starter on his 7AC Champ with a C85-8 engine.
John Propst
313 Hickory Grove Ln
Elizabeth, WV 26143
cell 304 588 3690
j.e.propst@ieee.org
N3129E 2WV3

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Mon Jan 07, 2013 16:32

Dale,
All of the Chiefs I have looked at have the brackets welded in. I would like to say all of them were set-up this way but the Scout may be excluded.
Jay Spenser up in the Detroit area has one installed. I made up the brackets for him. Before you go too far check with him, there are some operational issues with the starter installation.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

EDGEFLY
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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by EDGEFLY » Mon Jan 07, 2013 21:46

Paul,

I made a trip to the hangar today and found the welded-in bushing bracket and the cockpit located pulley installation point. There doesn't seem to be anything in the engine compartment but the nose bowl is an authentic Chief part and I don't think that will be a problem if I can round up a complete set of parts. I didn't pull the floorboards but since the other supports are there, I'm thinking the anchor point will be too. Do you have a contact address for Jay Spenser ? Maybe I can find him in the NAA membership list. You're right that there may be some problems here since no one seems to want to talk about their Chief with a McDowell Starter ! I wouldn't do this if it wasn't so hard to find people willing and able to hold brakes or prop but this seems to be a growing problem. Especially with Airports trying to limit propping due to potential liability problems. I think the starter I'm working on is going to be OK except that it probably is going to have the ratchet wheel for a flanged shaft. Thank you very much for your input. If it ever happens, I'll send you pictures.


Dale

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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by EDGEFLY » Mon Jan 07, 2013 22:02

Chief Pilot,

Thanks for your original response. I have had some time to look at the engine situation and also to confirm that my aircraft has the requisite mounting pieces welded into the frame. It is likely that the starter I'm looking at came off an engine with the flanged shaft end and so probably has the "dish type" ratchet wheel. You made a comment to the effect that we might be able to swap out ratchet gears if this turned out to be the case. Have you put together a set of the drawings for whatever installation you are considering ? If you have the ratchet gear, does this mean you have been able to pull together most of the other parts needed ? What aircraft/engine are you planning an installation on ? I would also be interested in more specifics on the "expert" opinion about the thicker Bearing spacer. Just naturally suspect expert opinions unless there is some real live experience to justify a deviation from an existing design. I've been in contact with my proposed seller and should have more info from him in a week or so.

Dale

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Re: A McDowell--Does it Fit?

Post by Chief Pilot » Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:55

Hi Dale, I am considering installing a McDowell starter on a Chief with an A-65-8 engine for the reasons you mention. I have all the parts except the pulley brackets. I have a deep-dish (flanged crankshaft) ratchet wheel but need the shallow-dish (tapered crankshaft) version. The only drawings I have are those from the Service Manual.

The propeller spacer is used with a tapered crankshaft whether the starter is installed or not. If you need the spacer you may have to use the owner produced parts provision of CFR 23-271 (a)(5). The FAA provides some info in a publication: At the FAA home page, search on this: news/safety_briefing/2002/media/julyAug2002. Open OSHKOSH 2002 and go to page 18.

One thing you need to consider is the requirement to torque-check the propeller bolts seasonally if you have a wood prop. If you also have a tapered crankshaft (and a McDowell starter) you'll probably need to remove the prop/hub adapter assembly from the crankshaft in order to hold the bolt heads while you check torque on the nuts. I haven't tried yet, but it looks like the bolt heads may be accessible through the nose bowl opening if a starter is not installed -- but no way if a starter is installed.

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