prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and such -

Pre-War Aeroncas
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sford
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prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and such -

Post by sford » Wed Dec 03, 2008 14:59

Just finished my 41 65-ca Super Chief and would like to know what the stall speed, climbout, approach, and other speeds are. Does anybody know?

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joea
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Post by joea » Wed Dec 03, 2008 19:31

Every airplane is different and there were no books for the early birds.

For a pre-war Aeronca to be safe I would fly the approach for landing at 60 mph until I was used to it, then possibly slow it down to 55 or so.

That said, please take a GPS with you on your first flight. A good friend of mine has a very nice L-3 that the airspeed indicates 40 mph all the time, climb, cruise and approach, so its worthless. The GPS saved him and at least he knows when he is getting slow.

Also on any new airplane, pls take it up at least 3000 (I like 5000) AGL and do a stall test. That way you can see how YOUR airplane stalls at and at what speed. Then you can feel more comfortable flying it on final at 55 when you know that it stalls at 40 or 45.

For climb most of us use 60 mph.

Joe A

rob
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Post by rob » Sat Dec 06, 2008 23:45

thanks Joe i intend to do the same this spring on a clear early morning with a ground crew with the same bird its something i think about all the time and looking forward to
rob

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and such -

Post by Rodney Zapf » Sat Aug 21, 2010 19:16

Please don't predicate your approach speed/landing speed based on your GPS. This is totally incorrect and could spell total disaster. Take the aircraft up to altitude, 3000 feet of so AGL, then slow flight the aircraft noting the airspeed (this is kind of a seat of the pants type approach to checking out your airspeed indicator). While slowing the aircraft, keep the ball centered, looking out the side window, note the angle of the bottom of the wing against the horizon and check the airspeed. Slowly reduce the power, maintain altitude, note the feel of the controls and again check the airspeed.

Fly around a little bit in this attitude and feel out the controls. As the aircraft approaches the stall ( keeping the ball centered), the nose will want to fall and you will require more effort on the wheel/stick to maintain altitude, again, note the airspeed indicator. If at this point the aircraft is indicating 35 to 40 mph, your airspeed is not far off. On the other hand, if it is indicating 60, you know it is waaaay off. Make your approach accordingly using "feel of the aircraft" as your measure of speed. Just don't base your airspeed on an instrument that measures speed across the ground such as the GPS.

If you are flying a Chief or Champ, get the "feel" of the aircraft and you will probably have a very good idea of your airspeed. Eg. if the bottom of your wing is even with the horizon and you are in level flight, you are probably doing around 75 to 80 mph (airspeed) . If the airspeed indicator says 60 mph it is most likely slow and if it indicates 90 mph it is probably fast, but this has notihing to do with approach speeds--slow the aircraft down for this check. Once you find the stall speed (no matter what the airspeed indicator reads) add about 1.3 to that speed for your final approach speed--eg. 40 mph stall speed, approach speed around 53 with a few mph added for gusty winds. :D Rod

PS. If you inadvertently take off with a frozen airspeed indicator or a plugged pitot, you do not have to panic nor do you have to abort the takeoff because you have "learned" to feel the aircraft. There have been more accidents from high speed aborts due to a panic rush for the brakes etc than there have been by simply remaining cool and feeling the aircraft into the air, around the pattern and landing.

It is good practice to simply cover the airspeed indicator at times and just "feel" the aircraft around you. Fly around for awhile, then guess the airspeed you are flying, then uncover the airspeed indicator--you will be surprised at how close you called it--with practice you will be within 5 mph. You never know when you will have an airspeed indicator failure, whether it be from a bird strike or what ever-BE PREPARED!

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and such -

Post by davesabre60 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 18:59

reference the previous remarks, VERY SOUND ADVICE, if possible ride with someone who has one, or has a good deal of time in one.
dave

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and such -

Post by Richard » Wed Aug 25, 2010 21:46

Solo, I approach at 50-55 with my 65CA. With the trim moved all the way back for landing, it is very stable. Stalls at 35 indicated. Very docile stall compared to other a/c. Climb around 70.
Mine will float for ever, at the 60 mph approach speed. The controls are very light and responsive, compared to newer aeronca's. Easy to over control with the pitch and rudder on takeoff and landing; when you first start flying these a/c. My brakes are shinn brakes which are lousy. So you can't avert problems with the brakes, like in other tailwheel a/c.

Enjoy!

Richard

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and such -

Post by jepropst » Thu Aug 26, 2010 14:15

I echo the previous comments to flight test your plane. When I redid my 7AC champ I set up the wings with a neutral wash-out as the book indicates. When I would slow fly the plane it would tend to get a bit squirrelly at slow flight. My guess was that it was beginning to stall first at the wing tips rather than at the wing roots. Bill Pancake suggested that I add three turns of washout to the wings (extend the length of the rear strut by three turns). I did that and it made a world of difference in the way the plane handled at slow flight and I think it also increased the cruise speed a bit. My plane now stalls in the gentle mushy drop of the nose that I was acustom to in the past.
John Propst
313 Hickory Grove Ln
Elizabeth, WV 26143
cell 304 588 3690
j.e.propst@ieee.org
N3129E 2WV3

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and such -

Post by Dan1940Chief » Thu Aug 26, 2010 21:44

My pre-war is a 1940 65-LA, and I find it stalls somewhere below 38, but can't say absolutely as this is an original ASI with the original pitot contraption.

Solo with full up trim I still have to pull back to reduce speed to 55 or less. full trim and hands off with power to idle and it will settle at 58ish.

Once abeam the landing point (at 500' AGL), I reduce power, trim full up, settle at 60, and then turn base to final. I don't fly squared off patterns in the Chief as I usually have the airport to myself early mornings. Anyway, it takes too long to fly the "normal" patterns (think 747).

Once the runway is made (grass whenever I can), I usually slip a bit to bleed off speed and altitude, then straighten out, pull the nose up, and shoot for 50 on short final.

At 50 MPH in no wind there's plenty of energy for the roundout and a gentle 3 point attitude for a few feet before touchdown.

Any faster and I float forever. Any slower and the controls get sloppy and the bottom falls out during the roundout (I don't use the "flare" term).

Stalls are very benign -- probably the most docile in any airplane I've ever flown.
-----------------------------------
Dan McCormack
http://flightmusings.blogspot.com/
1940 Aeronca Chief LA-65
NEW Home Airport: S37 (Smoketown, PA)

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and su

Post by skookum » Sun Jul 07, 2013 22:12

Love to see some pics of your 41 65CA Super Chief. I have one and there do not seem to be many 'Super Chiefs" out there.

David Ring, in Vermont

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and su

Post by jc pacquin » Sun Jul 07, 2013 23:26

IMHO....all these little airplanes fly pretty much the same. You should be able to land from any place in the pattern should the engine quit. Among others, I've owned two 140 cessnas , two champs, and two Taylorcrafts. As was stated, take it to 2500- 3000 feet, slow fly it, stall it, watch speed shown on panel, etc. then approach runway at 60, over the fence same, throttle at idle, trim almost all way back. Bring it down to about 3-4 feet off the runway and keep it from landing with stick (wheel) all the way back by adding a little throttle. Then see what speed your showing, cut the throttle, it should three point right on. ( in other words slow fly it down the runway) when these airplanes were abundant, the GPS was unheard of. You simply did what the instructor showed you over and over, getting the "feel" of what the airplane would do. (The Stearman was very similar in landing procedure , very docile, same speeds in pattern, but much more hairy in a 15 mph cross wind. )I don't know how long a runway your using but 3000 feet or more should give you plenty of room to figure it out. Once you get the "feel" of it, you will rarely look at the dials on landing. You should also be adept at slipping the airplane either right or left depending on the wind. I dont believe They teach spins or unusual attitudes much anymore. These were big confidence builders and gave the student a much better "feel" of what the airplane would do. Long slow airliner finals in these little airplanes is asking for big trouble and may eventually kill you. Unfortunately, today ,that seems to be taught by alot of low time CFI's . As you become familiar with the airplane, the lightbulb will come on. You'll know. I'd use whatever pattern the airport uses, most of the time it's square ( for a reason) and use the radio to inform others in each phase of the landing. Several accidents have occurred lately where only one airplane was using a radio and was run into and killed by the other fellow " who didn't think a radio was that important ". Best, JC

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hangerash
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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and su

Post by hangerash » Mon Jul 08, 2013 06:25

JC

You make some excellent points and I'm sure among the many 'great' airplanes you have owned they all behaved a little different slow flying above the runway because of 'ground effect'. NORDO (no radio) aircraft in the pattern used to be a way of life and I can still remember my initial training and the need to always scan all segments of the rectangular pattern for the runway in use. Glass panels like many of today's electronic gadgets tend to attract one's focus like a magnet and heads-up scanning suffers.

Richard
Richard

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rkittine
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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and su

Post by rkittine » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:10

My experience with older aircraft is that , as stated bay many here, fly it and start seeing what indicated airspeed results from what conservative test working up to the limits. Any published speeds or those used by others maybe way off from real airspeed. When I got,y 7CCM it though it was a speedster, but quickly learned that the airspeed indicator read an average of 15 MPH fast. So I would also suggest you do some tests to calibrate what your airspeed indicator is tell you.

I have cross referenced my new one with two GPS's and my iPhone airspeed app. and now feel wreasonably confortable with what my new indicator and installation is doing.
Robert P. Kittine, Jr.WA2YDV
West Nyack Aviation, L.L.C.
New York, New York 631-374-9652
rkittine@aol.com

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and su

Post by jc pacquin » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:21

Oh the t craft floats a little more, true. The Stearman, when power is cut, drops like a stone due to drag and weight!. If you can fly one, you can fly any of them using common sense. Something like a mooney then becomes very easy to fly, if you can handle any I've previously mentioned. I should add that I am not an exceptional pilot but most of my 3500 hours have been in taildraggers. Landing has always been my favorite and I still like to slip with rudder to the floor and stick or wheel far over. My instructor, in 1954, was a WW2 flight instructor, really talented. I never attained his degree of finesse in a Champ . His rules....Never fly in an airplane or with someone in command you don't know well. Never get "hung out" on long finals as it will eventually cause you trouble. Always use the radio, speak slowly and distinctly your intentions 2 or 3 miles out, then in each phase of the pattern. Keep your speed up on final until your positive you have the field made as he put it, "winding up in a tree or thru someone's roof short of the field is embarrassing. Not long ago, landing, using a square standard pattern , on base, I looked to my right and not far away was a 35 bonanza on final. He had not announced and ALWAYS made a long approach. I cut the power and dove quickly towards the runway. Landed and later asked why he didn't use the radio. He replied "seldom do". My old instructor would say....."THAT'S the guy that can kill you!" best, JC

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Re: prewar chief 65-ca speeds, stall, approach, climb and su

Post by jc pacquin » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:44

P.S. I forgot pattern altitude. ALWAYs use the published field altitude for obvious reasons. Most of the rules are just common sense.

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