National Aeronca Association Bulletin Board

Is it safe to spin Chiefs? I know they have quite a bit of age and many planes today are not even spin certified. Just wanted to get some input.

Thanks,

Todd Wilemon
Aberdeen, MS

I don't know about safe, but it's a whole lot of fun. Seems to me that as long as you don't over speed or go crazy on the pull out you should be putting little to no stress on the plane.

I had a hard time keeping the yoke centered and therefore would typically end up with aileron deflection causing the spins to be too tight and a little unnerving.

Have fun and continue to practice the unusual so if necessary it won't be so unusual.

DON'T TRY TO LOOP IT OUR ROLL IT!!!!!

Thanks for the info.

Todd

How old is the plane? Fresh restoration or been flying 30-40 years and you have no idea of its past history?

I am very conservative on things like this and if its an airplane you know very well, been restored in a recent time frame and taken care of with no young kids out trying to do rolls or loops in it, then I might try it.

Otherwise go and find a acro airplane, strap a chute on and do it right in a plane designed for it.

Joe,

Thanks for your input. I was kinda thinking along those lines, but I had read some threads on here talking about doing spins and it got me to wondering.

Todd

Sarge Hiatt,
Rolls don't hurt a thing, as long as you know how to do them. Shucks, I've rolled planes a heck of a lot larger than Champs, Cubs, 170's, Supercubs, etc.. A roll, properly executed, doesn't load anything. Loops are completely another matter. Remember Bob Hoover? His Shrike Commander was bone stock, and I never saw his wings come flying off....

Mike

I agree 100% however, as you say "as long as you know how to do them".....the average pilot me included doesn't know how to do rolls and my unofficial research says that the results of one of our old planes falling out of the top of a roll or loop may not end well.

Spins which I think should still be mandatory based on the number of deaths they cause, really can't hurt our planes.........UNLESS you over speed or try to pull TOO hard on the recover.

Just my unedgeamackted quess.

Still agree with Joe that when the itch needs scratched find a super decathlon and climb in that phone booth with a rubber hose to take your beatings.

I got my license in 1954. The instructor used a 65 hp champ. You HAD to recover from a spin on a point. We used a church steeple. Went to 3000 feet, spun to the right and to the left until you could bring it out on the church steeple. He said: "The airplane IS NOT flying, its only going about 30 mph, if that! kick it straight with the opposite rudder, get the nose DOWN, add some power and it WILL fly again." I finally got it and could anticipate the revolution and bring it out on a point. He had instructed in Stearmans and B-17's in WW2 and was plenty good. If the aircraft is sound and you take a good acrobatic pilot with you a few times it should be fine as it does not stress the aircraft , nor does a loop if done CORRECTLY. If done wrong its another story. P.S. I was never comfortable doing unusual attitudes so I can't qualify as any kind of expert.JP

I feel sure it is. However......I use to spin, loop, and barrel roll a Champ I had back in the 70s all the time. But the plane was a recent rebuild, although the spars were still about 25 years old even then. Now my Chief, although I'm sure it's a good sound plane, rebuilt about 25 years ago, the spars and various other components are now about 64 years old. As someone said, a spin isn't a stress manuver unless you let the speed and Gs build on recovery. However, I just don't do it. 64 years old is just a little too old to take a chance on either abusing or putting additional stress on. Just my opinion. However, my hanger neighbor just picked up a beautiful Great Lakes. Boy, do I envy him.

JC,

Hate to remind you, but 1954 the airplane was not even 10 years old! Whole different story.

My main concern is like Chris mentioned, if someone gets in a maneuver and gets the recovery wrong, the chances of their stressing the airplane past its limits are pretty good. You do that a couple of times and the tubing in the tail takes the loads just fine. You then put the plane to bed, it sits out in the hangar and quietly rusts or corrodes a bit and 10 years later its sold to someone who has no idea what the history is on the bird.

A new pilot jumps in the plane and tries something even half the stress of what it did 10 years ago and how is the tubing going to react? Frankly I have no idea but there will come a time when the airplane is going to say "enough" and I hope that the pilot (and pax) have parachutes on and enough altitude to use them.

If the plane has been recently restored/overhauled thats one thing, but otherwise if someone wants to do acro in a Chief/Champ I will be watching from the ground.

Joe

It's an old airplane, not a new one.

The first person to pull the wings off or to have the tail fail due to internal corrosion in the tubes gets all of us grounded and the whole fleet becomes more expensive to fix than they are to haul off to the city dump. If we thought the spar AD was bad...

Rent a Citabria with a CFI until you can get a low G pull out every time and on point.

Please.

Then think about the Champs and Chiefs.

Mark

Hey guys thanks for all the info.

Todd

Guys, I feel rolls in a Champ are much more dangerous than loops. The roll rate is so low, it takes a while to go around. The first natural response to being inverted is to pull the stick in your gut. You dish out of the roll with lots of speed and energy. Not good. The elevator control makes loops really not that hard in Champ. David J.

I think you're right. When I barrel rolled the Champ, it would take a bunch of nose down to get some speed, then nose up high and heavy aileron loads to finally get it through inverted, at which point it would try to dish out the bottom. I always felt like I was abusing it some. It was a more youthful ignorance then I guess....not to mention very amatuerish acro skills.

I agree with Joe. I shall watch all of it from the ground. Even a not too old Citabria makes me worry. Who has flown it, overloaded it? Landed it rough? etc. As the fellow said who chkd me out in the Stearman..." Be very gentle, you don't know where this old whore has been!" JC