11CC Chief

Post-War Aeronca Chief airplanes
MikeB
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: 11CC Chief

Post by MikeB » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:53

Richard,
I agree with Paul. Doubt you could ever get the FAA to agree. I noticed my (11CC) Certificate of Airworthiness is marked "Normal" which is 1350# but the utility in the specs is 1290#. If/when I ever get this thing done I plan to fly it 'as is' and maybe hope they'll finally get around to dropping the third class medical. For whatever it's worth department I have a friend with a L16 that somehow came out of the CAP registered as 1335#. When he asked a FAA guy after a meeting about it he said "It's a Champ fly it". Sometimes common sense does prevail. I suppose the key is not to overload it......like I said for whatever it's worth.

Mike

Paul Agaliotis
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:49
Location: San Martin, California
Contact:

Re: 11CC Chief

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Tue Jun 03, 2014 17:04

Mike
Common sense in the FAA is rare.
Generally the question asked, is the problem. An LSA aircraft that has had the GW increased cannot have it decreased to meet the LSA weights. BUT, the Champs and Chiefs are not LSA aircraft. Thats the confusing part. You ask the FAA about Aeroncas as if they were LSA aircraft, and the FAA answers the LSA question. Then the operators try to apply this to Standard Catagory aircraft. When the FAA talks about LSA that is all it includes. They have a list of "qualifying" Standard Catagory aircraft, but this doesn't mean they are "de facto" LSA aircraft. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
Use the FAR's to your advantage, the FAA does. If there is an operational issue volly the ball to the FAA to correct their regulation. That takes longer than getting approval for anything.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

User avatar
hangerash
Posts: 642
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 06:12
Location: Montezuma, OH (CQA)
Contact:

Re: 11CC Chief

Post by hangerash » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:40

I so appreciate reading Paul's comments. We are indeed our own worse enemy. Asking will usually result in a denial.

Bill Pancake was gracious enough to send me the air worthiness records of an 11CC he has maintained over the years. Initially it applied for and was granted a 'standard' airworthiness certificate at the time it was manufactured. Standard includes operation in the normal utility, aerobatic, and air transport categories. In 1955 the airworthiness certificates were re-issued and the standard was changed to specifically list normal and utility on the document. The old 337's were all completed listing the useful load in the normal and also the utility category.

My hypothesis was that an 11CC with the air worthiness certificate limited to the utility category met the definitions of CFR 14 1.1 for operation in the light sport category and should have been included on the FAA list of approved certificated aircraft for that purpose.

This began with an email to the local FSDO and this nice ASI I have come to know doesn't know a Champ from a Chief, a Cub from a Taylorcraft, and he immediately cites one reg after another in a telephone call. Needless to say at my advanced age he had me back peddling until I got home and read the TCDS and 14FCR-1.1 again. Faced with a predictable denial I formally wrote the FAA. Letters require more than lip service and opinion. Someone has to do some work. His call the other day confirmed the denial of my request; yet he agreed with my point suggesting the arbitrary issuance of an air worthiness certificate in the normal category meant that the aircraft, when operated in the utility category which its TCDS specified, did meet the requirements of 14CFR-1.1.

For no other purpose I am appealing their decision to educate another ASI about Champs and Chiefs.

As Paul said so well, don't ask if you are right.
Richard

Captgrumps
Posts: 793
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 20:18
Location: Georgia GA10/OPN
Contact:

Re: 11CC Chief

Post by Captgrumps » Thu Jun 05, 2014 00:28

Asking the curent FAA about old airplanes is like inviting your mother-in-law to dinner when your girl friend is pregnant.
Keep the pointed end forward--
The dirty side down.....
And the blue skies on top....

User avatar
hangerash
Posts: 642
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 06:12
Location: Montezuma, OH (CQA)
Contact:

Re: 11CC Chief

Post by hangerash » Mon Jun 09, 2014 09:29

Doug that is 'on the money' and this has proven to be an educational experience for the ASI who answered my first inquiry. Tube, fabric and wood all seem to be forgotten when you engage this next generation of federal employees with questions about our aged aircraft.
Richard

MikeB
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: 11CC Chief

Post by MikeB » Tue Sep 02, 2014 21:34

Progress report on the Super Chief......side note: it was interesting reading some of the literature on the 11CC: premium interior, 85 horse, McDowell starter (gone :cry: ), two glove compartments and two ash receivers (oh boy), balanced control surfaces, etc. Anyway progress report: the fuselage is covered and painted red and black, new bulkheads, new control cables, most of the interior finished including a new headliner, new landing gear frames/bushings and oleos are being rebuilt, dash and most controls installed, seats recovered. The wings were recovered and signed off before I bought the plane (estate sale) but the paint job in not up to my standards so will require a scuff and repaint. All the cylinders checked out at 75 or better. No engine log but what I can see looks good and clean with a nice cross hatch in the cylinders. The tach shows 35 hours which might be an 'indicator' :roll: but to be decided. Although I had intended to reuse the boot cowl and even primed it I decided it was too dented and ratty so I opted to make a new one using .032 material rather than the original .025. I found the .032 harder to work with as doesn't 'form' as well as the lighter material, but on the other hand it probably won't dent as easy either.......thank God for clecos!

As I usually spend most of the winter in San Antonio I'd guess at least a year(+) to finish but things are coming along. I might take the tail feathers along to Texas for covering and to keep myself amused rather than twiddle my thumbs for three months.

My wife (just passed our 50th wedding anniversary) always supports my 'hobby' but mentioned "I shouldn't fall in love with it".......what does that mean??

Sorry I don't have much for pictures at this point.

MikeB

User avatar
hangerash
Posts: 642
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 06:12
Location: Montezuma, OH (CQA)
Contact:

Re: 11CC Chief

Post by hangerash » Wed Sep 03, 2014 04:26

Great progress Mike. I was so hoping to see some pictures and saddened you don't have any to share. Its the finishing work now that I too am experiencing and that seems to take twice as long as what you plan for.
Richard

Post Reply