Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post-War Aeronca Champ airplanes
Dennis
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Dennis » Sat Mar 04, 2017 22:49

Jim, I hate to hear stories like this. Try to do "the right thing" and get screwed.

Dennis

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hangerash
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by hangerash » Thu Mar 09, 2017 14:00

Wow Jim. You sure got dumpster full.

I used to think the FAA was unwaivering and that you had to accept whatever the individual you happened to encounter said. Then I got really miffed when they wouldn't register an aircraft and found you can challenge any decision. When the person at the FSDO seems irrational, simply ask to speak with their supervisor. When the supervisor backs up their underling ask who they report to. It usually only takes another level or two to identify who is right.

If there is a PMA'd part available there exists a drawing that you can create a user supplied part from and that part can be installed with a logbook entry.

The FAA database in OKC is filled with mis-representations of dates and model numbers. I have one on a currently registered aircraft that was caused by a local GADO (predecessor to the FSDO) dropping a couple of letters and now I'm living with it. The I/A I work with said to leave it be until I get all of my current upgrades approved and then contact OKC. From what you have described I don't think I want to take a chance of having my aircraft grounded for an extended period because of a clerical error on someone else's part.
Richard

Dennis
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Dennis » Thu Mar 09, 2017 18:05

When I installed the 0-200A under Wagner STC, I checked the FAA web site to see if they had updated their files with the new engine. I was surprised to see an 0-200 C listed when the 337 cleared stated an 0-200A. The FAA person kept telling me I would have to get a DAR to verify and submit the appropriate documentation to change their files. I like to have never got her to realize that the 337 already submitted had the correct engine recorded and they had made an entry error. Her paradign would not allow her to consider the possibility that "they" made a mistake. Ultimately, I got her to read the 337 and recognize their error. A very frustrating conversation.

Dennis

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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Dennis » Thu Mar 09, 2017 18:08

Just a thought, did later Champs have a factory installed hinged cowling and were they built under the same type certificate?

Dennis

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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Dennis » Thu Mar 09, 2017 18:08

Just a thought, did later Champs have a factory installed hinged cowling and were they built under the same type certificate?

Dennis

MikeB
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by MikeB » Sat Mar 18, 2017 18:44

On another note (as long as we have Paul's attention) my Chief project (which has a hinged hood ...gulp) came with no logs. From the airframe my IA and I have been able to resurrect from old 337's and basically the plane has been rebuilt this time down to the airframe anyway so everything there is inspected and documented with new rear spars and fabric, etc. However there are no engine logs. I've ran cylinder compression (leakage tests) and everything cold is at least 75/80, bore scope looks good with good cross hatch, 35-40 psi oil pressure, the back accessory cover has been off and gears are good and what we can see of the cam and lifters. The oil pan removed and everything washed down and oiled for preservation. New Slick mags and rebuilt Bolduc carb. I doubt the engine has more than 500 hrs. since major (or less) but can't prove it. Interestingly, I know about where the logs stopped or got lost but haven't been able to motivate the previous owners to come up with them even though I offered them $100 each for the engine and air frame logs. Such is life!! My IA who I've worked with for 30 years is OK with it What's your thoughts overall?

Regarding the hinged hood which started this thread: my L16 came with a hinged hood and I believe it was factory (looked that good) but I could be wrong.

Mike Berg

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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Sun Mar 19, 2017 05:49

Mike,
There are specific FAR's that cover missing documentation. Not having a log isn't the end of the world, take a look at AC 43-9. It covers everything needed to recreate lost log books. The biggest problem occurs when you get to AD research and life limited parts. The Aeroncas don't have any life limited parts but there are some AD's that will need to be identified and signed off in the engine.
You need to get all of the information the FAA has on the engine. If you know the N number of the plane it was removed from, try the serial number of the engine to see if the FAA has any information listed by that number. After you have done all of that, use any recovered information to generate an engine time. If you still don't have anything, based on your inspections of the engine, make an estimated time you feel reflects the condition and make a log entry to this. I would make it at least mid-time. Make sure the entry is very detailed indicating EVERYTHING, research included, to keep you clear of FAR 43.12. All of the AD's related to the engine will need to be checked and signed off.
Paul
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MikeB
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by MikeB » Sun Mar 19, 2017 08:05

Hi Paul,
Thanks for chiming in. I knew you'd come up with some info. To the best of my knowledge this is the original engine that came with the aircraft (11CC). At least according to old inspection forms. I'm in Texas now and away from my paperwork but seems like the last one I can find is probably in the early 60's and it shows about 1200 hours if I remember correctly. Does have the original engine data plate that corresponds to the engine listed in the original paperwork. As clean as the engine is I'm sure there was a overhaul done not that long ago but I can't prove it. Interestingly the tack shows 85 hours so that might be some indication but lacks real "proof". One of the prior owners (this thing had bounced from several owners as a 'semi basket case before I rescued it) went back and talked to some of the prior 'flying owners' and it seemed to him there was an overhaul performed but again no proof. Well, anyway I'm going to research for any AD's and SL relative to the engine. It's a C85-8 by the way. I know the carb has been built up to specs by Bolduc as I have the paperwork on that and new Slick mags. It seems way back there was an AD on piston pins but unsure if that included C85's or just A65. I'll work with my IA and try to document everything. A few years ago we had a L16 owned by a friend of mine and basically did the same thing with an estimated time of 1000 hours or less. That's still flying fine.

By the way, I bought a McDowell starter for the Chief. Looks like everything is there including the correct nose bowl other than I have to horse trade mounts with Colie Pitts. Should be interesting.

I miss this forum and don't check it very often!

Best and thanks!!
Mike Berg

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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Sun Mar 19, 2017 19:19

Mike,
Glad to hear you have some information on the engine. It can be as simple as the average flight time per year as listed in the previous records. Just continue the time per year as an estimate.
Great news on the McDowell stuff. The C series stuff is a little different than the A series. I still have all of the hard tooling for the McDowell attaching parts if you need something that Collie can't supply.
Paul
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MikeB
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by MikeB » Mon Mar 20, 2017 06:57

Paul,
Reviewing the AD's that seem pertinent to the C85 engine I only seem to see two that apply: 94-05-05R1 (Rocker arms) and 98-17-11 (crankshaft by Nelson Balancing). The others appear to be for the carburetor, magnetos or just don't apply to my C85-8F. Looks like both of those can be handled pretty easily but I'll get my IA involved. He's good for me but he's a bit 'paper-work shy'.

Thanks again and I hope we can get together one of these times and have an adult beverage.

Mike

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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:19

Mike,
There aren't many to look at on the C85. The problem would be if the FAA issued an AD (like Nelson)and you can't prove it's not inside your engine. You would have to go in and look. Don't make it a big deal with the FAA. They will tell you it has to be overhauled, which would be nice, but not mandatory.
Looking forward to getting together in Middletown or sooner. If I find myself in the land of 1000 lakes I'll be sure to look you up.
Paul
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clipperfixer
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by clipperfixer » Wed Apr 19, 2017 15:39

I hinged my Champ cowl. The 7DC had one. The Aeronca drawing for that is 7-787 I signed it off as a minor using that drawing.

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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Thu Apr 20, 2017 06:47

Great news!
With the little Aeronca's being built over such a long period of time there is generally a way around these silly FAA requests. Enjoy the great flying weather,
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: Champ/Chief hinged cowl

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Thu Apr 20, 2017 06:48

Great news!
With the little Aeronca's being built over such a long period of time there is generally a way around these silly FAA requests. Enjoy the great flying weather,
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

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