15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Aeronca Sedan Airplanes
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joea
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Sun Apr 03, 2011 15:57

poulter1 wrote:The FAA engineer did not know when the NPRM would be published.

John
Sure hope that they let us know so we can get our side of this out.

Thx,

Joe A

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:29

Well everyone, its out.

http://www.tdatacorp.com/iaprch/11-0318.htm

10 flight hours or 3 months and the entire Sedan fleet around the world is grounded.

No alternative means of compliance is shown at this time, so even those of you who have had their wings open and inspected them recently (Matt and Arash come to mind) have to start cutting holes in your nice newly painted Sedan wings.

Oh should I mention the approx $4000 cost for the kit and installation for each airplane? And this is only for the inspection covers that you can buy from only one source.

This is not an AD yet, but we really need to come together as a group and let the FAA know that there are other options than this.

poulter1

Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by poulter1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:37

here is the link to the Federal register:


http://www.federalregister.gov/articles ... tchell-and

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Mon Apr 04, 2011 13:12

Love this part:

(3) Will not affect intrastate aviation in Alaska,

Wonder if they talked with any bush pilots before putting the above in the mix? Really doubt it...

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Mon Apr 04, 2011 13:29

Has anyone seen or heard of: Burl's Aircraft Mandatory Service Bulletin No. 15AC06-08-10?

If we are to follow the correct procedure on this, we have to follow the above service bulletin. Have spend 20 minutes searching the internet and as far as I can find its not available anywhere. not even on Burl's website. How can we see what the procedure is if its not available to the public before making comments on the proposed AD?

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Mon Apr 04, 2011 17:38

Well,this should bring the price of the Sedan down.
Cessna has a similar problem with their spar caps, they call them a wing stringer, and they have a nested angle repair for them. Should try to get an AMOC for it.
Thanks to whomever was responsible. I feel much safer now.
Paul
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by AV8R2 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 22:22

First of all, I would like to thank one and all for their support in this situation and the armchair second-guessing of "who is responsible; who's going to make"all the money"! This is going to turn into at least a $30,000-$40,000.00 mess that was started by someone who wanted to sell a $250.00 "boroscope" type tool and a bunch of rubber plugs to all of you, that now, I have to clean up.

Just so you all know, I did not start this. I am being forced by the FAA to implement this since I am the TC Holder. Some one north of Anchorage started this.

As for the Service Bulletin; I just got FAA Approval for the "engineering aspects" TODAY, 04-04-2011 on my SB dated 06-08-2010.

As for the NPRM; I got the notice today about 15 minutes before the editor of Antique Airplanes/EAA emailed me with these same questions.

The SB will/should be posted on my website by tomorrow evening.

If you have other ways of complying with the problem now why did you wait until now. This has been going on for 3 1/2 yrs and I could not put the FAA off any longer; they pretty much demanded conclusion to this. If you need to call the FAA call Eric Wright, Anchorage ACO Engineer; (907)271-2648. He is the engineer in charge of this NPRM.

Every thing that I have done for the Sedan is to improve it, promote it and make your $10,000-$25,000.00 Sedan worth $35-$85,000.00. I've done all this out of pocket. I built 1 part, sold it and made 2 more. Today, I have almost 400 part numbers on the shelf for sale. How many have you bought lately? Or do you subscribe to the "I'll make my own and save money; forget if it is legal or not". Repairs are one thing, manufacturing is another.

There was NO TOOLING, whatsoever, for the Sedan when I purchased the TC. NONE! I have made new tooling, drawn new and improved designs for parts that I can no longer get the same materials for because it is no longer made in this country. I deal with shortages, nonexistent specifications that have to be researched because they changed the name or specs onto a new spec that has no history of what it "used to be". This is an almost daily occurrence.

If you want to get through this with the least amount of down time then you had best support me because the FAA WILL ground the fleet. The inspection doubler/cover kits will cost about $675.00 per plane. Not much considering my gas bill for drive my car and van is almost that every month. Most of you are pretty handy with a hole saw or fly-cutter and can handle a rivet gun pretty well.

So you spend a week-end installing some inspection covers that probably should have been installed at the Aeronca factory. So now, the wing and plane have become more serviceable and valuable. You really have to stop and remember that Aeronca didn't expect these planes to be around for 60+ yrs. either.

I have always priced my parts accordingly. Go ask a Cessna driver what Cessna wants for a new fuel screen for the older 180/182- $800.00. How about a new fuel valve for a 185-$8,000.00. How about a fuselage half of a pilot's door hinge-$485.00. How about a door latch, no handle, for $1,200.00. Top half of an engine cowling, if you can get them to make it, $12,000.00.

FAA guesstimates are just that; a guess. The longest that I have heard for a spar cap replacement was 100 hrs for both wings; 60 hrs for the first wing, 40 hrs for the second. The good news is the spar caps can be available for a very reasonable price. Our original listing was $225.00 for the top cap and $175.00 for the lower cap. Same price as 38-50 gallons of avgas @ $4.50/gal. and that is probably what car gas will be shortly.

This will be my first and last post on this matter until I have final disposition. If you have questions, call me at (907)688-3715.

Burl
When all else fails, go to the source. Factory Approved parts and data will get you back in the air.

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by AV8R2 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:52

I would like to say here and now that I was mistaken about the role that the "person north of Anchorage" played in this situation. Their interest, I have since discovered, was "genuinely the safety and continued airworthiness of the Sedan wing".

I was also mistaken about their wanting to sell the boroscope and plugs. The boroscope was presented to the FAA as an Alternate Method Of Compliance. These are available through local hardware and home improvement stores. I was wrong in making these assumptions and ask for their forgiveness.

Although their contact with the FAA may have "stirred the pot" the fact that I have had replacement cap angles since 1998 indicates that I/we all knew the Sedan has a problem and that it will have to be addressed at some point. That point has arrived.

Burl
When all else fails, go to the source. Factory Approved parts and data will get you back in the air.

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Tue Apr 05, 2011 13:19

Burl,

Thanks for posting on the thread.

One thing that I keep hearing in the numerous phone calls and emails I am getting on this subject is, "Does Burl have the parts available right now if this comes to be an AD?"

I am assuming that they are talking about the inspection cover assy's that are shown as being required in the proposed AD. Should this become cast in stone in May (or there abouts) do we have availability of enough covers to keep 200+ airplanes in the air? If not any idea how long it will take to make them up?

This as you well know is the exact time of year when the working Sedans in Alaska and the Yukon are really in demand and the last thing we need to do is ground everyone for any reason. This is not "wartime emergency" here and we were given months to comment on the wing spar AD for the Aeronca Chief's and Champs, not six weeks in this case.

Also, has anyone looked into doing an inspection like this partially with a aircraft model borescope (not Home Depot!) and the rest using inspection covers? I for one will agree that it would be nice to have some more inspection covers on the wing, and frankly would not mind having an additional landing light on the right wing.

Would wonder if it would be possible to "mix and match" things here and end up with say 2-3 additional inspection covers on the bottom of each wing, AND then use a borescope to inspect the entire areas in the wing AND make a photo or video record of this for their IA, the ones who should be in charge of this inspection in the first place and not one person anywhere.

Joe A

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by seaheli » Tue Apr 05, 2011 22:18

Why does an owner have to purchase the inspection covers from one source?

Why is there not other means of NDT recommended for inspection?

Charles

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by Matt » Wed Apr 06, 2011 06:33

seaheli wrote:Why does an owner have to purchase the inspection covers from one source?

Why is there not other means of NDT recommended for inspection?

Charles
NDT = Non Destructive Testing. But maybe I was the only one who needed to look this up. :oops:
Aeronca 15AC Sedan – Restoring and flying the classic 4-seater: http://www.n1331h.com

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by seaheli » Wed Apr 06, 2011 07:09

Matt wrote:
seaheli wrote:Why does an owner have to purchase the inspection covers from one source?

Why is there not other means of NDT recommended for inspection?

Charles
NDT = Non Destructive Testing. But maybe I was the only one who needed to look this up. :oops:
I believe there should be options for the owner-operator! "NDT inspection", eddy current or ultra sonic testing could be beneficial.

Charles

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:29

seaheli wrote:
Matt wrote:
seaheli wrote:Why does an owner have to purchase the inspection covers from one source?

Why is there not other means of NDT recommended for inspection?

Charles
NDT = Non Destructive Testing. But maybe I was the only one who needed to look this up. :oops:
I believe there should be options for the owner-operator! "NDT inspection", eddy current or ultra sonic testing could be beneficial.

Charles
Charles,

We are working on this. Agree with you and Burl and I have emailed privately about this. A "mix and match" of inspection covers and borescope holes needed to properly inspect the inside of the wing should suffice. Now all we need to do is convince the FAA's rep of this!

Also covers from any source should be legal, not just coming from one source as you mentioned.

Joe A

poulter1

Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by poulter1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:29

Everyone,

If you previously sent Della Schwartz or anyone at the FAA information regarding the spar corrosion issue the people working the AD may not have receivd it. I know that the suggested procedures I and one other individual sent to her did not make it to the people working on this AD.

As the FAA cannot release anything they do have I have no way of gathering more information on what was sent in. I do not think anyone really knows how widespread the corroision issue is. There is only one Service Deficiency Report filed on the issue. Lots of rumors but not lots of facts. I believe that corrosion is something that needs to be dealt with but would like to have as much information as possible as I and others work on a potential process for dealing with the issue.

I would like to ask that everyone who sent the FAA any information on this issue to please forward me or Joe Abramson a copy, or your best recolection, of what you sent. Even if you did not send her anything but have information about some corrosion on a Sedan spar or suggestions please send those also.

Comments can also be submitted about the NPRM at the Federal Register. See the link below. Realize that suggestions to change something in the NPRM will very likely be ignored if they do not provide significant detail and support for the change. Also realize that you do not have to give them your name and address if you make a comment.

Finally, based on discussions with the Aircraft Ceritification Office today it appears that the comment period will be extended to 90 days. I have submitted a formal request for this and the ACO said they would do the same.

John Poulter

http://www.federalregister.gov/articles ... tchell-and

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by Matt » Wed Apr 06, 2011 14:44

Thanks, guys, for bringing some order into this discussion and for collecting facts.

Personally, I am still in the process of sorting out my own feelings, questions and ideas about this, but will be in touch, in a couple of days. As for right now, I feel, we should give top priority to the extension of the deadline set by the FAA. This will give everyone, including the FAA, more time to help find the optimum solution to a problem that obviously does exist. Personally, I simply cannot see any rational reason, why such a tight time frame was set for entering comments and for eventually and possibly putting the AD into force.

Our Sedans' wings have done their chore for 60+ years now! So, what is the point in rushing this procedure? Giving the owners 6 months to discuss and to support the search for an adequate procedure, would be nothing but fair. And then, once an AD or a service instruction comes into force, a span of 12 months to realize the mechanical work needs to be granted to every owner. This will permit to complete the required actions, during the annual inspection, for example, and to plan the work for a season, when the plane is least used.

What do you think, shouldn't we, first of all, request an extension of the dealine? I really doubt that there will be any reasonable argument denying such a request.

Matt
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