15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Aeronca Sedan Airplanes
Paul Agaliotis
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Fri Jul 01, 2011 13:30

Joe,
Short answer, you can't. Once they decide to regulate that's exactly what they do. This item was brought to their attention, by someone. In my case by using the Malfuncition Defect Report. In the Sedan case it looks like a lot of finger pointing.
Paul
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Sat Jul 02, 2011 04:53

If nothing changes, today and tomorrow are the last days to submit comments. Thanks to those who have done so, and if you have not, please submit something and at least ask for a delay so that we can review all the information before everyone makes a decision.

Thx,

Joe A

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Nathan K. Hammond
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by Nathan K. Hammond » Sat Jul 02, 2011 07:30

The website to make a comment is down (saturday 10:30AM est) .

http://www.regulations.gov/
-FAA-2011-0318-0006

nkh
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joea
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Wed Jul 06, 2011 20:45

It opened back up on Monday afternoon and believe several others posted. You might try to post now and see if its still open.

Its now the 6th and the promised FOIA information DID NOT come as we were told, so wonder what's going on.

If they do not extend things and for a change take a serious (and not knee jerk) look at this, there will be a lot of people greatly unhappy and a lot of very difficult press for the associated FSDO office.

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Thu Jul 14, 2011 18:45

Well everyone, the news is no news. The feds have not done what they said they would do and are now a week late in sending out the information we requested in the FOIA.

The first package of info they sent out was absolutely worthless, consisting of one malfunction report for a 11AC Chief (since when does a Sedan have spar nails?) and three others that have nothing to do with Sedans and their spars.

We are working on the next step but as to why the feds are with-holding the information they promised to provide on the 6th of July is a good question.

More as we get it.

Joe A

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Thu Jul 14, 2011 20:43

Joe,
The first thing to understand is that the FAA doesn't know a spar from a Mr.Potato Head. They are just sitting there waiting to regulate. If you have a convincing enough argument they react. Somewhere along the line somebody put a bug in their ear and started this nonsense. I believe most will start this repair and sell their disassembled airplane. They are starting to show up in the classifieds as the owners think about the repairs. I hope whoever started this sh!t storm is satisfied.
Paul
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deCreeft
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by deCreeft » Wed Oct 05, 2011 09:04

I need to replace upper attach angles in both wings.
Rh wing had splice with no paperwork and small spot of intergranular corrosion

Left wing looked good through inspection hole by strut, but when aileron removed and really good look, angle was bad full length

I had new aortic valve installed my heart,three months ago,so grounded for at least three more months..

just now ready physically ready to deal with it, but unsure best next step...

For now, I'm going to leave the wings on with ailerons off and boards on tail and sweep snow a while this winter while I research things.

I'm not giving up on the plane, but need to sell something , and I'll be 80 by next summer .

Going to sell a 1932 V12 seven passenger Pierce-Arrow Model 52 Custom and a 1962 997 Mini Cooper...both to be restored but also both very rare !
I've had the Pierce 50 years, and the Mini 40 years...not really going to fix them up now.

Anybody ??

What has turned out to be the hours for replacing all four angles...from experience ?

Bill
Homer,Alaska
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esandberg
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by esandberg » Wed Oct 05, 2011 09:46

Hi Bill,

I had to take my right wing clear apart, and replaced the beam angles in the process. From what I've done, for the beam angles only, I'd estimate 5 man-hours to remove the wing, 30 to de-skin, 10 hours to drill out the old angles, 10 to fit & rivet the new ones on, 30 hours to re-skin and 5 hours to reinstall the wing.

There's a lot of assumptions there, namely nothing goes wrong, you don't find any other problems along the way, you have a huge flat workspace and nothing interrupts the project (I stopped early on & went to A&P school...). You might be a handier craftsman than I am, and I bet having two skilled people working simultaneously would reduce the total man-hours. 90 hours per wing might be wildly optimistic, or somebody here in the group might be shaking their head saying "What's he doing--polishing the spar web, too?" That also might be the right time to do the inspection hole Service Bulletin if you're going to, which will add a few hours.

Anybody else agree/disagree with 180 hours for 4 spar caps?

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by deCreeft » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:44

Thank you !

I don't know if there is a thread developing somewhere else on here for this topic...but I have a feeling it's going to grow !

I asked Burl...also checking to see if there is someone in Alaska who has done it and would make a bid...and he said there is someone who has developed a way to cut down the time and still keep the 'jigging effect' of leaving some of the skin on at each step...but he is somewhere in the States; no help to me, I'm afraid.

He did say he figures about three or four hours for removing and replacing the wings...he grew up with Sedans, of course, but he said "Don't cut the safety on the forward overhead bellcrank...cut the aft one and secure with tape to maintain aileron rigging".
I have had the wings on and off and on in the past, and I remember it as a big deal...so that already is a thing to keep in mind for anyone removing their wings while they toss & turn on this thing...

If, upon close inspection, the lower angles are really good (that is where all the favorite oils and preservatives and Magic Elixers pool up...might be good, and seem to be at this point) that would help a lot because the lower skins would hold the shape, and obviously save man hours.

I have already bought the insp. hole kit.
I'll mark and locate the center holes before any skin comes off.

I don't think I can do this by myself, just too much age/damage on my shoulders...(But i have the Strength of Ten now because my heart is pig !?!) So I'm going to have to find someone.

Thanks for the input, and I'll be watching and waiting!

Bill
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esandberg
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by esandberg » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:25

There's surely a lot of variables in a time estimate.

I don't think you'd go unchallenged in the assumption that since there's oil, preservative, etc, collected around the bottom cap acting as a barrier against the atmosphere, the lower beam angle is then immune to the specific type of corrosion in the proposed AD and service bulletin.

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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by deCreeft » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:30

Agreed !

No assumption; just a hope, " until closer inspection"...and hope springs eternal!

We'll be be cutting the inspection holes ahead of the spar before anything is decided ...and before we start we'll be prepared to go all the way and do it all.

Two days ago i would have said I have one bad wing and one good wing...now i have two bad wings.
Just don't know how bad yet...depends on who I'm doing it for, I suppose; The Lifetime Quarantee is about that of a water heater for me.

But I've never taken the easy way out yet on an airplane...could have bought two 180 horse Sedans for what it cost to make new wings for the Travel Air, and it will outlive me by a long time...had it 40 years and a new owner has it now.
But I was still working and earning money then.

Even if i never fly again, the Sedan will...I would never leave it any other way.
Just have to part with some Junk to get some money!

Bill
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by bsafran » Wed Oct 05, 2011 13:37

I am working with several different companies trying to get a price on spar cap replacements along with the installation of the inspection holes. I have several spare Sedan wings that I want to have repaired and signed off so that we can offer them as an exchange for owners that have spar cap problems, but are unable to do the repairs themselves. I am the biggest Sedan lover in the world and I want to keep as many flying as I can. I'm afraid people will find corrosion and be resigned to the fact they they are permanently out of the 15AC flying business. The company that I have the most hope to help me is Koerner Aviation in Kankakee, IL. They have a good history of reputable work on older taildraggers and they are slow right now. This repair is going to be labor intensive, but with each pair that we do, perhaps some efficiencies will come about to keep costs down. Does anyone out there have another spare set of wings that we could work into our program?

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joea
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Tue Mar 13, 2012 09:54

Well folks, the wing spar AD is now official. AD 2012-04-10 - Small Airplane/Rogers, Burl A./15AC is now on the books.

Just received it a few minutes ago and there is good and bad.

The good is that its not effective for another month and gives us a year (or next annual) to bend over and take it like a man.

The not so good is that they did not give a damm about any of the AMOC (alternative means of compliance) and there is none. There were 11 posters who asked for and provided an AMOC that would have inspected the spar cap area without putting 18 large holes in our wings but the FAA once again disagreed, saying that they did not have "written guideance for doing a borescope inspection at this time. BS, as I have seen the AMOC sent into the ANC FSDO and it was included in the documents.

For that matter they did not agree with ANY of the comments that any of the Sedan owners or maintenance professionals posts. Not one of them...

As well at this time as far as I can see there is no other option than to buy the covers from one source.

Now, I have received an email from someone I will not name and they told me that the identical inspection covers just might be available from another source and for less than half the listed price from the other source, so that helps. Have also heard that a Sedan owner has made a device that helps cut the holes for the inspection covers and that he might be willing to loan it out to us, and that would help.

This is a sad day in the Sedan world... An AD for absolutely no reason!

Joe A

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Matt
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by Matt » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:14

Thanks Joe!
Aeronca 15AC Sedan – Restoring and flying the classic 4-seater: http://www.n1331h.com

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joea
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Re: 15AC ACS - Spar Intergranular Corrision

Post by joea » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:37

Well, we now have an FAA approved AMOC to deal with this AD. Now we have options!

Please see John Poulters thread here: http://www.joea.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.ph ... 470#p36470

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