Sport Pilot Antagonists

Anything pertaining to the new Light Sport Pilots license, or other licensing.

Do you think the Sport Pilot rating is safe?

Yes
40
91%
No
4
9%
 
Total votes: 44

aerial
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Sport Pilot Antagonists

Post by aerial »

Pro:
Chuck Yeager
"We (US military) soloed pilots in 15 hours in high-performance aircraft and they were fighting combat shortly after."

FAA
"(a) Airplane category and single-engine land or sea class privileges,
(1) 20 hours of flight time, including at least 15 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane and at least 5 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.311,
(i) 2 hours of cross-country flight training,
(ii) 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport;
(iii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance, with a full-stop landing at a minimum of two points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations, and
(iv) 3 hours of flight training on those areas of operation specified in §61.311 preparing for the practical test within 60 days before the date of the test."

EAA
"The new sport pilot certificate offers a simpler, more affordable path to becoming a pilot for those who wish to fly for fun and recreation."

Con:
American Aviation in Santa Rosa, CA
"We are not going to get involved with it. The sport pilot rating is not safe, you better take a careful look at it. "

____________________________________________________
Requirements to become a SPI (Sport Pilot Instructor)
(a) Airplane category and single-engine class privileges,
(1) 150 hours of flight time as a pilot,
(i) 100 hours of flight time as pilot in command in powered aircraft,
(ii) 50 hours of flight time in a single-engine airplane,
(iii) 25 hours of cross-country flight time,
(iv) 10 hours of cross-country flight time in a single-engine airplane, and
(v) 15 hours of flight time as pilot in command in a single-engine airplane that is a light-sport aircraft.
Last edited by aerial on Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by joea »

Just had something on the local news last night about the SP rating. Most of the coverage was positive, except for one wacky neighbour saying that "now there will be more planes in the sky and more to fall into our house" but everything else was good.

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Post by Nathan K. Hammond »

Doesn't this whole Sport Pilot sound like a remake of the Recreational Pilots Licence? Now given I haven't followed the SPL or the reqirements in depth, but besides the fact you don't need a Medical, what are the major differences.

Personally, I'm not sold yet on the SPL, but I'm not against it either. The only Pro I see, is the fact that I can still fly a Champ when my Medical expires. But I don't think that is enough to overcome the bad.

If you're gonna learn a little, why not go a head and get the whole Private. I see this becoming a way for inexperienced pilots get mess up bad and get hurt. Either by not understanding weather, or getting lost, or just pain not knowing what to do. Think about when you had 20hrs flight time, how much did you know compared to now? Could you make a Correct rational dissicion in a flash? Second off, what about instructors. They only have to have 150 hrs?!?! At 500 hrs I was still learning something new on EVERY flight. Personally, I have problems with the fact that at 250hrs someone can be a Multi-Seaplane-Instrument Instructor. Given some can do it, but others can't.

Maybe I'm just Old-School in my thought, but I will always keep an open mind to everything. My ramblings may seem a little over kill, but I see them as a worse case senerio. Much of it depends on the student, and if he/she is open minded to learning, change, and most important, instruction.

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Sport Pilot

Post by Jerry Eichenberger »

I'm one of the biggest proponents of the SP certificate around. Read my columns in Private Pilot magazine to see how gung-ho I am.

We have to ermember a few things:

1. Sport pilot covers many categories of aircraft - airplanes, gyroplanes, powered parachutes, trikes, gliders.

2. You may get a license in a trike, a glider or powered parachute in 20 hours. But that doesn't mean that you will in an airplane.

3. It'll still take the same amount of time to solo in a Champ, regardless of whether you want to get a SP or a Private. I see no way that anyone but Superman will actually get a license, in an airplane, in 20 hours.

Why go for the extra expense of a private if you want to fly a Champ, Cub, T-craft type airplane? Why spend good money and time learning to fly at night, going thru a dual night x-c, doing all of the instrument work, all of the landings at a towered field, etc.?

I look at the SP license as a roll back in time, to something not much different than a private was in the late 1940s - before the requirements for night, radio, and instrument work.

Safe enough then, safe now.
Jerry A. Eichenberger
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614-798-1600
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Post by Nathan K. Hammond »

I'm still not buying it.

They teach things like, cross contry, night flight, Intrument work for a reason. If you experience it with an instructor, you will be ready for it when the instructor is not there. SPL doesn't allow night flight, or cross country, but what is there to stop the pilot from doing that? lets say a guy jumps in his luscome and goes from homebase to a fly-in 100 miles away. It's beyond his "limit" as a SPL but nothing stops him. Now say he stays longer than planned because those burgers where great, and it's getting dark. Armed with a GPS and a stubborn head, he plows off into the night, but he's never flown in the night. Maybe there's a little weather built up.........

Like I said, I see the worst case, but it's certainly possible. And I'm not worried about someone being able to fly the plane. The instructor won't get out of the plane if the guy can't fly!

I'm concerned that a Sport Pilot will get into a situation beyond his limits. and worst case, crash and/or kill someone.

Back in the 40's it was trial by fire. you listened to all the stories you could and tried to learn from them. But still, many many airplanes crashed and that was acceptable. Today though, as soon as 2 or 3 SP's crash, it will be all over the news. And will become very bad PR for Aviation.

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Post by Dennis »

With all due respect, think about your argument but with a few minor changes:

They teach things like, [unusual attitudes, cross contry navigation, instrument approaches and Intrument work] for a reason. If you experience it with an instructor, you will be ready for it when the instructor is not there. PP doesn't allow [instrument] night flight, or [instrument] cross country, but what is there to stop the [private] pilot from doing that? lets say a guy jumps in his luscome and goes from homebase to a fly-in 100 miles away. It's beyond his "limit" as a [PP] but nothing stops him. Now say he stays longer than planned because those burgers where great, and it's getting dark [and the vis is less than 3 miles]. Armed with a GPS and a stubborn head, he plows off into the night, but he's never flown [by instrument] at night . Maybe there's a little weather built up.........

Like I said, I see the worst case, but it's certainly possible. And I'm not worried about someone being able to fly the plane. The instructor won't get out of the plane if the guy can't fly!

I'm concerned that a [Private] Pilot will get into an [instrument] situation beyond his limits. and worst case, crash and/or kill someone.


So is it a valid argument? Should instrument rated pilots be the first ticketed level of aviation? From here, I guess the next argument up is an atp rating. Something to think about. Just trying to present it from another perspective.

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Post by shorty »

OK Nathan. look at it from this point of view: When you last got your medical, you just barely squeeked by. Now two years later you are worried that you may not pass. You have two choices, #1 go for the medical and risk being grounded. or #2 let it lapse, and fly under the sport pilot rule.
The choice is yours.
Personally, I'd rather be flying!!
Thanx
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Post by Nathan K. Hammond »

Nice job Dennis. I never thought of it in that light before. No matter where you are on the latter, the lower rungs always seem incomplete.

And your point Shorty has been the only reason I have interest in the SPL. I always figured when the time came that I couldn't pass my medical, I would move to a farm and fly the champ by myself. Never take passengers, and never go anywhere, just putts around so if something happened I would only kill myself. But like you said, with the SPL that would be a bit more legal.

Call me old fashion, behind the times, or an ass. I just try to protect my privillage to fly an airplane, so I drag my feet when something new comes around. I fear the day some politician steps in and try's to put more of a squeeze on GA. :?

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Post by Ron Babos »

Nathan: You forget the most important part of piloting an aircraft, common sense. I've seen private pilots that shouldn't be near an aircraft , let alone fly them.

Back in the late 70s I taught myself to fly a Gyrocopter. Took it slow and easy. Flew that for 200hrs and then something called devorce put an end to that. The aviation bug and a new women came along in about 10 years , at which time I wanted to go fixed wing. The ultra light was the least expensive and the easiest to optain.

Trust me , these mothers are a hand-full on those tubulent days. Our ultralights can be 1200lbs for the basic category at a stall speed no more that 45mph.It took around 15 hrs to solo a CH 701. It was a nose dragger Finnished building my Murphy Maverick soon after that and that was a tail dragger. Did about two hrs in a 7ac to see the difference.

Prior to that purchased a really good how to fly a taildragger book. When I wanted to learn how to spin an aircraft, I found the local aerobatic guy at the club. Practiced crosswind landings until my knuckles were no longer white and a smile appeared on my face. Learned the good and bad of the Champ. It will flip on it's back if you pull hard back stick in a steep turn at near stall speed.

This was done intentually at altitude to find out why one of club Champs augerd into a corn field shortly after take-off. (he's ok, the plane isn't) In my opininon one should learn everthing he can about the flying qualities of their arcraft. You will be more confident and will live longer. The bottom line is the SPL will produce a new crop of pilots, some with common sense, some with-out.

As my instructer pointed out to me, the learning never stops regardless of the licence you have. As you pointed out earlier what skill level you had at 20hrs as opposed to what you have now. After 400hrs I feel the same, but we both started at 0, didn't we? Ron
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Post by Dennis »

Nathan,

"Old fashion, behind the times", my kids call me that. But an "ass"? No one is an ass for being suspicious of a politician or FAA motives.

I understand where you are coming from. A few years ago I was crusing up to Oshkosh, minitoring 122.8 and looking for a place to fuel when I caught the last half of a transmission, "... pull it over to the side, this is a ramp check." I have no idea if it was a ramp check or just a local joke but needless to say, I selected an airport using 122.7. I do not know of anything wrong ( in the eyes of the FAA) with my plane but why take a chance.

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Don't forget, your instructor still needs to sign you off

Post by sedanpilot »

It the whole debate, many seem to forget about the instructors. Over my flying life I have had many. Most have been excellent, and wouldn't have signed off a bad student, no matter how many hours they had. When I got my private ticket, as a 16 year old, it took me longer than the minimum required 40 hours because I worked fast food for the money to take lessons and couldn't afford much more than a lesson every two weeks. It took me 55 hours spread out over 9 months to get my licence because that is how long it took a 16 year old boy to learn enough to be safe (sort of) The minimum hours are only a guidline, you still need to demonstrate to the instructor you can fly.

P.S. if your 16 year old boy wants to learn to fly, don't set them up with a good looking female instructor, it will take them forever to learn landings. :wink:
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Sport Pilot Advocate

Post by SFC Hiatt »

Without a doubt I wouldn't be able to afford to fly let alone have money left over after getting my SP license to purchase my own plane (7AC 2661E) if it wasn't for the sport pilot rules. Sport pilot works for me because I only want to fly low and slow in and around my home airport (kpnc/kwld) and I have no reason to fly at night or God forbid above 10,000ft , which by the way I took an hour going to 9,997ft the other day just to become more familiar with the plane. I don't need to tell any of you experienced pilots just how fun it is to fly a 65hp champ when the weather is anything but beautiful so IFR was never in my equation of learning to fly.

I did my Solo in 12 hours only because that was one of the insurance requirements, my instructor Dr. Anthony Johnstone was able to spend all of our seat time teaching me how to safely fly the plane. I am really pulling for Sport Pilot to catch on so maybe my insurance will go down when I have to renew. As it stands now, Falcon is timid about my policy because of the back door approach of pilots loosing medicals and falling into SP.

Let me jump back of the soap box and say that I love flying almost as much as being a Soldier. According to my instructor, after my check ride which is soon, I will be the 9th SP in a 4 state area around the Wichita FSO.

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Post by joea »

SFC Hiatt,

Wanted to thank you for your service. There are those in this wonderful country who might not realize what the men and women in our military are doing for them.

Those of us who have served salute you and know that we all feel safer every night because someone is "on watch" around the world at all hours of the day and night, wearing a US Military uniform. I am in Cairo Egypt right now,and you better believe that I know where the US Embassy is, with its US Marine guards at the gate. If things get "sporty" around here its where I am headed!

Glad to see you on this forum, as well as in an Aeronca! You cannot do better than that in most of our world. Considering that I fly jets for a living but on my down time come home and fly my Aeronca, you are in the right place.

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Thank you for the Thanks

Post by SFC Hiatt »

I don't do it for the “Thank you” but, it sure does feel good to get one once in awhile. :)

As to your comment about enjoying the champ, I have flown in and jumped out of just about every type aircraft ever built and I too wouldn’t want anything else at this point. I took the plane to a fly in restaurant the other day, I parked next to a couple real high dollar aircraft and still everyone wanted to look at the little plane with the snoopy on the rudder. My instructor has a Super Decathlon and I caught him flying alone in the champ the other day while his Decathlon set lonely in the hanger.

Be Safe
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Post by SFC Hiatt »

The 7ac will also break hard when your working on power on turning stalls to the left and your cheating with right rudder telling the instructor that it doesn't want to break. Once he added a little back pressure she flipped hard right. I don't cheat with rudders anymore.

SFC Hiatt

Ron Babos wrote:Nathan: You forget the most important part of piloting an aircraft, common sense. I've seen private pilots that shouldn't be near an aircraft , let alone fly them.

Back in the late 70s I taught myself to fly a Gyrocopter. Took it slow and easy. Flew that for 200hrs and then something called devorce put an end to that. The aviation bug and a new women came along in about 10 years , at which time I wanted to go fixed wing. The ultra light was the least expensive and the easiest to optain.

Trust me , these mothers are a hand-full on those tubulent days. Our ultralights can be 1200lbs for the basic category at a stall speed no more that 45mph.It took around 15 hrs to solo a CH 701. It was a nose dragger Finnished building my Murphy Maverick soon after that and that was a tail dragger. Did about two hrs in a 7ac to see the difference.

Prior to that purchased a really good how to fly a taildragger book. When I wanted to learn how to spin an aircraft, I found the local aerobatic guy at the club. Practiced crosswind landings until my knuckles were no longer white and a smile appeared on my face. Learned the good and bad of the Champ. It will flip on it's back if you pull hard back stick in a steep turn at near stall speed.

This was done intentually at altitude to find out why one of club Champs augerd into a corn field shortly after take-off. (he's ok, the plane isn't) In my opininon one should learn everthing he can about the flying qualities of their arcraft. You will be more confident and will live longer. The bottom line is the SPL will produce a new crop of pilots, some with common sense, some with-out.

As my instructer pointed out to me, the learning never stops regardless of the licence you have. As you pointed out earlier what skill level you had at 20hrs as opposed to what you have now. After 400hrs I feel the same, but we both started at 0, didn't we? Ron
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