No-Bounce Gear and LSA

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Nathan K. Hammond
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No-Bounce Gear and LSA

Post by Nathan K. Hammond »

Digging around my files for something else, I stumbed onto a letter from the FAA regarding the No-Bounce gear and the LSA weight requirement.
Looks like Mr. Jeffryes found us a loop hole :!: :!: Basically, if you don't have the placard installed, it retains the 1300lbs gross weight.
Image
If you need a better copy to print off, shoot me an email with a suject I can recognise i.e. Champ, LSA No-Bounce etc....
Nathan_K_Hammond (at) hotmail.com

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Post by joea »

Boy,

Thats very nice to see. Hope that it worked. Rich is on the fAA Aeronca email list and might just have to email him about this.

Joe
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Re: No-Bounce Gear and LSA

Post by Mikek »

Nathan K. Hammond wrote:Digging around my files for something else, I stumbed onto a letter from the FAA regarding the No-Bounce gear and the LSA weight requirement.
Looks like Mr. Jeffryes found us a loop hole :!: :!: [/size]Basically, if you don't have the placard installed, it retains the 1300lbs gross weight.Image
If you need a better copy to print off, shoot me an email with a suject I can recognise i.e. Champ, LSA No-Bounce etc....
Nathan_K_Hammond (at) hotmail.com

nkh


The Key wording is no Placard and THE CHANGE IN OPERATION LIMITS AND WEIGHT AND BALANCE REPORT STATES 1300# it all come down to paperwork!!

The complete last paragragh is what makes it 1300# not that the tag went missing from the last landing or cleaning.

It did work for Mr. Jeffryes

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Post by MikeB »

I would think you could just do a new weight and balance with a maximum gross weight of 1300#. Like Mike K. says "Paperwork" and no placard, of course. Or to think of it another way, if you can go up with the gross weight, why can't you go down? Doesn't seem like brain surgery to me :? .

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Post by Mikek »

mikeberg/wi wrote:I would think you could just do a new weight and balance with a maximum gross weight of 1300#. Like Mike K. says "Paperwork" and no placard, of course. Or to think of it another way, if you can go up with the gross weight, why can't you go down? Doesn't seem like brain surgery to me :? .

Mike Berg
I has been put in cement by the Reg for LSA it states [for meeting the LSA requirement] once you go outside of the limits by STC, 337 or other FAA approved method it can not ever meet the LSA Req again.

This does not prevent you from going back, just that you can not call it LSA again.

What the letter clears up is that the note on the upgrade to no bounce gear that states something like you MAY lets you declare that you elect not to take the option for the higher weight that you can set up to 1350 or even stop at 1301, 1322, thru the required change in operation limitations and new weight & balance report for the new empty wt calulations.

In short the above FAA letter just clears up the word "MAY" and states the actions by the AI in paperwork did not request the Weight increase just the addition of the approved gear. I the upgrade paper work in the STC or TC states will or must then you will or must make the change.

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Post by MikeB »

Curses!! Foiled again!! :evil:

There is actually a regulation that states that? Doesn't bother me as both my Champ and L16 are at 1220 right now, although I'd like to get the L16 to 1300# once I finish it and I do have 'no-bounce' , big fin, fuel tanks, etc. (also, no engine, at present :? ). I have a friend though who is restoring a L16 and his paperwork states 1330# if I remember correctly.

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Post by Mikek »

mikeberg/wi wrote:Curses!! Foiled again!! :evil:

There is actually a regulation that states that? Doesn't bother me as both my Champ and L16 are at 1220 right now, although I'd like to get the L16 to 1300# once I finish it and I do have 'no-bounce' , big fin, fuel tanks, etc. (also, no engine, at present :? ). I have a friend though who is restoring a L16 and his paperwork states 1330# if I remember correctly.

Mike Berg
You can go to 1320-30 with little problem, the only problem with these older aircraft is that many changes can happen over the years and when you but it it might be a 7AC at 1220# but get the FAA CD of the past records by N# it might have be a piper in its past life.

We all have a few secrets in our past.

Go for the 1330# gross

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Post by WWhunter »

This is where I see the problem....you may not know it was raised because it doesn't state so in your paperwork. Get the CD and find out if over the years someone upped the gross and filed it with the FAA. If they have no record of it I see no reason to have the plane grossing at 1320.
I've seen a couple references of 1330....did I miss something? Isn't LSA 1320?

My conversion...7AC to 7AC/Conv states it CAN be increased to 1300 or 1350 with the no-bounce. (I don't have the no-bounce) So I am lucky any ways. O-235 powered Champ :)
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Post by Nathan K. Hammond »

I see this as a gold mine for people looking for an LSA Champ. Many, including me, assume a Champ has the high gross when the N-B gear is installed. But if you're seriously looking for an LSA, and come across a N-B geared Champ, it's worth the $10 to order a disk and check out the logs. It might save you several thousand $$$$ in the negotiation.

Plus, I interperet the letter to imply BOTH the Log entry for gross weight and the Placard have to be pressent for the gross weight increase to be legal. So, no placard; no GW increase.

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Post by MikeB »

I agree that it could be a paperwork problem. One would best order the CD. I have no logs with my L16, but have been able to somewhat construct a paper trail using the CD and military records. I can't find anything other than 1220# GW in the paperwork even though I have 'no bounce.

Just for the sake of discussion, what happens if you have a plane with "no bounce" rated at let's say 1335# GW and you remove the no bounce and go back to standard oleos? Wouldn't that sort of being like removing the placard?

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Post by Nathan K. Hammond »

Not really Mike, because the logs note an increase in GW, and thats a deal breaker for LSA.
Mikek wrote:I has been put in cement by the Reg for LSA it states [for meeting the LSA requirement] once you go outside of the limits by STC, 337 or other FAA approved method it can not ever meet the LSA Req again.
If I was making the argument to the FAA, I'd try to establish whether the Placard was installed at the time of the GW increase. If the Placard installation was NOT noted in the logs, you could argue the service letter/STC wasn't fully complied with (even if the placard installed.) Use that information and Mr. Jeffryes letter to back up the argument.

The whole argument hinges on the fact; a service letter and/or STC is legal, only if, the entire process is carried out and so noted in the logs.

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Post by Mikek »

mikeberg/wi wrote:I agree that it could be a paperwork problem. One would best order the CD. I have no logs with my L16, but have been able to somewhat construct a paper trail using the CD and military records. I can't find anything other than 1220# GW in the paperwork even though I have 'no bounce.

Just for the sake of discussion, what happens if you have a plane with "no bounce" rated at let's say 1335# GW and you remove the no bounce and go back to standard oleos? Wouldn't that sort of being like removing the placard?

Mike Berg
What you have done is make the Aircraft unairworthy for flight, but it is still a 1335# aircraft with no bounce.

You to be airworthy you need to note that the gear was changed and then to make it airworthy document the correction in the W/B Form showing the new Empty Wt and new CG limits. You can leave the note: not to spin and also the note that only the pilot can smoke during a flight.

There are several things going on here:

1. If the directions in the STC, TC or Major Repair/alteration were not carried out correctly does not mean that the engine, supports, big tail was not added, they were it is just that the aircraft is not airworthy for flight.

2. If there is an option to say "yes" to the weight increase, you need to state "yes" by stating that in the records as outlined which is the W/B Form change in GW & CG change.

3. If you did not install the placard or removed it you can not operate the aircraft at the higher WT# until you install the placard. I have the STC for flight with Door removed it reqiures a placard to fly this way if I remove it the aircraft still has that STC just that I need to comply with the STC before using it that way.

If AI states that he complied with the TC or STC and signs it, then that has happen. The FAA might review it if sent to them in a 337 and record it but each time the operator uses the STC he must comply with the STC reqiurements.
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Aeronca Gross Wts

Post by Mnflyer »

I,m confused, where is this 1330/1335 lb gross wt coming from? The TCDS don't have a Champ listed at those wts.
7AC=1220 lbs 7BCM/L16 1220 lbs 7CCM 1300lbs with standard oleos and 1350 with the no bounce/long stroke oleo. The 7DC 1300 with standard oleo 1350 with no bounce oleos (requires the placard and applied for increase.
7EC with standard oleos 1300 lb and with the long stroke oleo 1450 lbs.
I have not looked up the STC's maybe some have a differnet GW?
Most all the L-16's had no bouns/long stroke oleos as this was a military required change, but could have be changed back when civilized :D :lol: .
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Re: Aeronca Gross Wts

Post by Mikek »

Mnflyer wrote:I,m confused, where is this 1330/1335 lb gross wt coming from? The TCDS don't have a Champ listed at those wts.
7AC=1220 lbs 7BCM/L16 1220 lbs 7CCM 1300lbs with standard oleos and 1350 with the no bounce/long stroke oleo. The 7DC 1300 with standard oleo 1350 with no bounce oleos (requires the placard and applied for increase.
7EC with standard oleos 1300 lb and with the long stroke oleo 1450 lbs.
I have not looked up the STC's maybe some have a differnet GW?
Most all the L-16's had no bouns/long stroke oleos as this was a military required change, but could have be changed back when civilized :D :lol: .
I guess its from reading that the gross maybe raised to 1350 so why not to 1331#, if thats what you state in the paper work. Also if your at 1220 and it alows you to goto 1300# why not opt to stay at 1220 or goto 1221 - 1300.

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Post by Mnflyer »

Hi Mike, I maybe wrong but I don't think the FAA allows one to choose a gross wt its only what is in the TCDS 1220-1300-1350 not a number in between, ( in between would fall under loading and WT & Bal would it not) this has been discussed on other forums IE the Kitfox forum some wanted to build say a model V Kitfox which has a 1550 lb gross but figured they would only certify it at 1320, but some posted that that is not allowed for LSA, I have no personal knowledge of this with the FAA, but I know some are really up on this and others are not. But I see that the Kitfox factory has come out with a new LSA model basically a model V with a factory determined 1320 lb gross, just some of my thoughts nothing in concrete. :D :)
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