Potential Problem

Fuel tanks, systems and parts
MikeB
Posts: 3247
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Potential Problem

Post by MikeB »

Image

I'll throw this out for anyone who might be interested but notice that the Wag Aero tank gasket is tight against the bottom of the fuel cap Considering that venting (such as it is) is only through the fuel cap this is not going to help the fuel transfer to the main tank. Unsure what they had in mind when they came up with this tank gasket setup. I'm most likely going to drill and braze cap vents on anyway so it's not really an issue for me but passing it on for information to anyone else with the Wag wing tanks.

MikeB
Paul Agaliotis
Posts: 2571
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:49
Location: San Martin, California
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

Mike,
Don't use that neck gasket! Wag uses a toilet tank gasket for the seal and it covers the vent of the cap, three areas that are not pinched. John Deere has a gasket that is a better rubber and has "Fuel" embossed into it.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046
MikeB
Posts: 3247
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by MikeB »

Paul,
That's why I posted the picture (for others that may not know). I'm aware of the John Deere gasket. Even have the part number around somewhere. With the JD gasket I'm still not sure the tanks will drain fast enough. That's the reason for the forward facing vent tubes brazed into the cap on most I've seen. I should probably send a photo of the cap/gasket setup to Tom at Wag Aero.

Mike
Paul Agaliotis
Posts: 2571
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:49
Location: San Martin, California
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

Mike,
One of the biggest problems with transfer time is the tank venting. The vented caps in use today have a one way vent that allows air into the tank as the fuel is used. But the vent acts as a check valve as the air in the nose tank is displaced by the incoming fuel. My wing tanks have a under wing vent and non-vented caps. The W-A setup needs vented caps most of the factory stuff doesn't.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046
Dennis
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 09:09
Location: 7M2
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by Dennis »

Mike or Paul,

What is the John Deere parts # for the rubber gasket?

Dennis
MikeB
Posts: 3247
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by MikeB »

Dennis,
I wrote the number down years ago thinking I was going to purchase one. Seems like it was around $18.00 at the time so I declined. I probably have it somewhere in my desk......my shop......at home.....at the airport.......in my tool box...... :roll: I'll look and see if I can find it. If not, I hope Paul chimes in with the correct number. Otherwise, go to your John Deere dealer and tell it's for your green airplane. Actually, it's a fairly common part so you should be able to find it by measurement and description.
I'll look, though. Are you getting close? Looks like you had a lot of bad weather down in your area.

Mike
Paul Agaliotis
Posts: 2571
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:49
Location: San Martin, California
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

Dennis,
Try this number, John Deere part # R82873 @ $13.75
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046
Dennis
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 09:09
Location: 7M2
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by Dennis »

Thanks Paul, I see if I can get to a dealer and check out the number.

Yes, I am getting close. I got the ailerons rigged. I need to safety wire all turn buckles. I also need to fit the wing root fairings. I would like to start the engine for the first time this weekend.

Things are going slow now because it is turkey season and I bought 1/2 of a Grumman Cougar project. And yes, it has been raining like pouring piss out of a boot. Our storm celler has about 3 ft of water. So in case of a tornado, we have the option of being blown away or drowning. But we have been lucky so far. Everything has missed us.

Back to the woods tomorrow morning, then the cougar at mid day and the champ tomorrow late afternoon.

Dennis
Dennis
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 09:09
Location: 7M2
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by Dennis »

Ok, I found an on line source and got them ordered.

Thanks Paul.

Dennis
User avatar
RRHaldeman
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:07
Location: Mt Juliet, TN
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by RRHaldeman »

I tried the Wag Aero fuel cap and had the same problem. The vents would not work because they are on the bottom and inside the fuel cap, so if the fuel cap is flush with the fuel grommet. -- no air; fuel starvation. The fix is REALLY SIMPLE. I live near American Champion and visited the factory and found that the company makes a vented fuel cap that is vented on the outside top edge. No fuel starvation. Decent price too. But make sure you insist on the VENTED CAP.
Dick Haldeman, RRHaldeman AT aol DOT com
Cell (815) 222-9812
1946 7AC-2407 N83729
MikeB
Posts: 3247
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by MikeB »

I did talk to John at Wag Aero and told him about the problem. Someone certainly should have seen that if they know anything about system venting at all. Be interesting to see if they correct the problem as I can't imagine how those upper tanks vent. Right now I have no grommets at all on my wing tanks which probably doesn't hurt anything either. With the limited fuel in the nose tank you certainly do want to know that the tanks are filling. I don't have a lot of time on mine but they do seem to be working with the Wag Aero (vented) caps (and no grommets). As Paul mentioned the nose tank cap can slow the venting process down too. Also, I think a 'reverse standpipe' coming from the wing tanks and facing toward the top of the main tank would help too so the wing tank fuel doesn't have to push against the main tank fuel to fill.

MikeB
brink
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 03:54
Location: Granbury tx
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by brink »

Hello Fliers:
I was looking at your photo, and I don't think the seal is installed right. hard to change now, But prior to your cover install the seal, and it should go just above the fabric line. the top of the seal that is. install the fabric and a reinforcement pie plate cut with the fuel tank filler circle in the middle of the pie plate. just under the filler OD, that will seal and prevent fuel from spilling into the wing. That seal is also in the boot cowl 13 gal tank. and is placed on the tank filler before you install the boot cowl, when you senich down the boot cowl, the rubber seal will seal the hole, and your vent will work, on the stock Aeronca caps, I even used the seal on my rear tank, above the baggage compartment, Had trouble with fuel transfer, I felt it was because airflow, So I put a 4 inch snorkle on the cap, fuel transfers in like 3 minutes, after I did that little mod. Just my 2 cents, Have a nice holiday A fellow Aviator Sunny
MikeB
Posts: 3247
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by MikeB »

Sunny,
You could be right but the instructions don't say squat about installing the grommet before the fabric and it seems it would cause an air bubble under the fabric (or maybe not). Well, like you say it would be pretty hard to change now anyway and the fabric fits nice and tight around the tank neck. The John Deere grommet is another alternative if it gets to the point I think I need something around the neck.

Mike
User avatar
rkittine
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 13:48
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by rkittine »

I had all kinds of problems with the transfer of fuel from the wing tank to the nose tank. It got worse when I added Vortex Generators on the wing. Finally found out that the tank had a hole in it, the vent line was plugged and not cut correctly with the 45 degree cut facing forward and the cap was vented and with that set up should have been a non-vented cap. Finally braised a forward facing tube on the cap, correct the vent line and the hole in the tank and now the fuel transfers totally in about 4 minutes at normal cruise.
Last edited by rkittine on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
Robert P. Kittine, Jr.WA2YDV
West Nyack Aviation, L.L.C.
New York, New York 631-374-9652
rkittine@aol.com
MikeB
Posts: 3247
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 17:07
Location: Western Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Potential Problem

Post by MikeB »

Image

Well, here's how I solved my fuel transfer problem with my Wag Aero 5 gallon wing tanks. The left tank would sometimes vent and fill the nose tanks but the right one was pretty 'iffy' and I couldn't depend on it. I suspect probably something to do with the prop wash or wind over the top of the wing creating a partial vacuum. So I brazed some forward facing vents on the caps and my transfer problems are over :D . I need to get around to painting the wing root fairings one of these days, too :roll: .

MikeB
Post Reply